NO MORE RANKING SYSTEM?! (Read)

Throughout the years, we’ve received immense love from every one of our readers. And we’re deeply thankful for the amount of support we got from the people who understand what we are all about. We appreciate, love and thank you all for these amazing years.

However we’ve received our own fair share of criticism as well. Our ranking system has always been controversial, and rightfully so. However the content within our analyses is the most important thing to us. We didn’t watch more than 30 to 40 individual live performances for each of these vocalists, more than 120 so far, for nothing. We care about each and every one of these vocalists. People might call us biased and if you know me, you know I hate to be called something I’m not. We’re not biased. Bias is not even listening or caring, it’s having a pre-conceived notion and sticking to it. We don’t do that. We give everyone a fair chance. We don’t have preferences, we don’t rank based on our taste or whom we like. We don’t dislike anybody or try to put anyone down.

But we understand that ranking vocalists isn’t the nicest thing to do. For a while now we’ve been thinking of eliminating the ranking system altogether. Truthfully, it’s counterproductive to rank vocalists against one another. That’s not what we’re about. We’re here to spread knowledge and educate people on vocal technique. We want people to be able to know what’s unhealthy and healthy for the voice. What can be dangerous and what’s good for you. We want the best not only for the fans, but for each of the vocalists we’ve analyzed. We spend so much time analyzing them, we truthfully grow attached to each one of them. I know I do.

So from now on, we won’t be ranking vocalists or trying to say someone is better than anybody else. We’re against fanwars and we don’t wish to fuel them. We want these rankings gone altogether. So from now, we’re going to simply label vocalists under their strongest qualities and stylistic choices. We won’t say who’s better than who, but we won’t label them by genre either. Instead we will re-label and re-organize them based on who prefers to sing within what range, in what way, what style and who’s developed their voice a specific way.

That does not mean that we don’t personally believe there is a more effective way to use the voice. We do and we stand by it. We stand by the fact that there are different types of techniques and ways to sing that a vocalist can choose and a vocalist who has more choices, has a bigger “tool belt” of choices to pick from. However even then, at the end of the day the choice is the vocalist’s and the vocalist’s only. If they choose to listen or choose to sing in one specific style, that’s their choice and we must respect that. However if they wish to change because they want to develop other ways to sing and other parts of their voices, that’s what we’re here for.

I know that change is hard and that many of you are our fans because of our ranking system. I don’t expect every one of you to stay with us through this change, as I know you like to know who’s better than who. But we feel as vocal instructors and vocalists ourselves that it is best to take this step forward and create a place that’s neutral in its narrative and positive in its message. We don’t want to fuel negativity. Who cares who’s better than who? Love your artist, support them and care about their vocal health, that’s all we want!

Our system goes now as follows with our criteria. The criteria will be updated in the front page as well. (Changes may still be made as this is the beginning of this only. You could call it a BETA mode right now.)

MH Vocalists: Mid-Range Head Voice Vocalists

Vocalists in this category haven’t developed their head voices very high but are able to use them within a relatively low to mid range in their voice type’s tessitura. They maintain connection at will and are able to access their head voices at will.

Sopranos: Up to at least D5 up to G5/G#5
Mezzo-Sopranos: Up to at least C5 up to F5/F#5
Tenors: Up to at least A4 up to D5/Eb5
Baritones: Up to at least F4 up to Bb4/B4

HV Vocalists: High Head Voice Vocalists

Vocalists in this category have developed a relaxed and open sound in their head voices. They can manipulate dynamics, qualities within their head voices, they maintain supported qualities and manipulate the placement in their head voices well.

Sopranos: Starting Around A5
Mezzo-Sopranos: Starting around G5
Tenors: Starting around E5
Baritones: Starting around C5

MB Vocalists: Mid-Range Belters

Vocalists within this category generally perform the best within their mid-belting mixed voice range. Once they go high, they might have issues with keeping their throats as opened as they were in their mid belting ranges. They must be able to produce resonance in their mixed voices to be classified in this category.

Sopranos: Up to at least C5 up to D5/Eb5
Mezzo-Sopranos: Up to at least Bb4 up to C5/C#5
Tenors: Up to at least G4 up to A4
Baritones: Up to at least Eb4 up to F4

HB Vocalists: High Range Belters

Vocalists in this category perform best and have the most ease within their upper mixed voice ranges. They are able to keep an opened sound without losing tone quality, without losing support and without losing volume while still being relaxed. They must be able to produce resonance in their mixed voices to be classified in this category.

Sopranos: Starting around E5
Mezzo-Sopranos: Starting around D5
Tenors: Starting around Bb4
Baritones: Starting around F#4

M Vocalists: Mid-Range Vocalists

Vocalists in this category are those with relatively narrow supported ranges, whose strengths lie in singing within an octave of their range without going too high or too low too often. They generally keep support within a mid one octave range, but outside of that strain can become more apparent and intense.

Sopranos: Falling somewhere within A3/Bb3 ~ Bb4/B4
Mezzo-Sopranos: Falling somewhere within G3/G#3 ~ G#4/A4
Tenors: Falling somewhere within E3 ~ F4/F#4
Baritones: Falling somewhere within C3 ~ C#4/D4

ML Vocalists: Mid-Low Range Vocalists

Vocalists in this category have somewhat developed their lower ranges, but could still further develop the strength in the vocal cord development, projection, support and connection as they descend lower in range.

Sopranos: Going down to about G#3/G3
Mezzo-Sopranos: Going down to about F#3/F3
Tenors: Going down to about C#3/C3
Baritones: Going down to about A2/G#2

LR Vocalists: Low Range Vocalists

Vocalists in this category generally develop their lower ranges well and are comfortable singing lower than most within their voice types. They have developed chest voices, sung without tension, with connection, projection and ease.

Sopranos: Anywhere starting on F#3 and below
Mezzo-Sopranos: Anywhere starting on E3 and below
Tenors: Anywhere starting on B2 and below
Baritones: Anywhere starting on G2 and below

S vocalists: Stylistic Vocalists

Vocalists within this category usually prefer to sing in a specific specialized generally breathy way, narrowing their genre to keep themselves true to their style. They can often prefer breathiness, soft singing, throatiness and falsetto over singing with more connection and belting with more openness/roundness in tone.

C Vocalists: Commercial Vocalists

Vocalists in this category lack in terms of clarity of tone and overall management of airflow. They don’t necessarily prefer stylistic qualities like breathiness or soft singing. Instead they prefer to sing in a way that’s specific to their own music only, preferring to sing with high larynxes, or more air pressure, etc.

MA Vocalists: Melismatic/Agile Vocalists

This category is exclusive for the vocalists who have learned to how to properly move their vocal cords from note to note, at the center of pitch, with precision, control and ease. They have flexible vocal cords that respond to changes in pitch without sliding through them, but instead hitting each single note at a time with accuracy.

WR vocalists: Well Rounded Vocalists

Vocalists in this category have developed their ranges to sing within a variety of genres and styles while keeping a strong connection between their vocal cords and air management to sing with minimal strain within a wider range, from chest voice to mixed voice to head voice. The development of each of those registers should be both consistent and balanced.

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205 thoughts on “NO MORE RANKING SYSTEM?! (Read)

  1. I didn’t agree with all of your rankings (but I agreed with most of them), but why should I? It’s after all your own ranking and everyone has different opinions. And you guys have been nothing but respectful with your opinions.

    But I understand why you deleted it. I noticed that especially the Kpop fandom can get ugly very quickly… And I wouldn’t want you guys to receive hate over that. You’ve done great, interesting analysis and I hope you’ll at least keep them no matter what.

    Maybe it was the right choice.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. It cannot JUST be ignored as ‘just his opnion’ when the critique is suppoted by knowledge of standard vocal health techniques. The ranking was the LEAST bias of all and ranked everyone purely based on their vocal ability.

      Liked by 1 person

  2. I understand you guys this was good thing to be done but why changing the names of categories you still have to Put vocalists under categories like average and above average so you just change the name of it commercial=weak and well rounded=excellent some fans are going to be rude no matter what I understand deleting the chart of ranking but changing the name of categories while you still have to put vocalists under categories make no sense at least to me it’s really hard to understand it I wish you can put the old named just don’t put the chart of ranking vocalists it’s hard to change some people at least keep the name of good categories like excellent and great and good and competent but weak=commercial that’s better for sure it’s really hard to understand it now and thank you for the amazing analysis again

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    1. No, that’s not what we did at all. Our new system is NOT the same as our old system. People are trying to compare both systems and trying to assimilate them. We were more thoughtful than that, don’t underestimate our ability to think. Well rounded vocalists aren’t great, nor excellent, nor good, nor proficient, nor above average. There are vocalists who are WR who were AA, or Proficient, or good, or excellent or great. These are two different systems, so please read carefully.

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      1. well that’s even hard to understand, so some vocalists may have good techniques but since they prefer styles they are going to end up as stylistics singer like commercial you put them under their most developed register or their strongest habit if singers has somehow well developed But his style or bad habits are bad so is he going to be stylistic singer or well rounded Sorry for being stupid but I am really big fan of you guys and I really wish you the best for all your dreams

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      2. Hello again. Sorry to bother you here again but I think this information from SoHyang’s interview is interesting. She said that her the highest note is Eb7. So, from A2 to Eb7 which means about 4,5 octaves vocal range /unsupported/. Also she said that she has problems with her health and she think to quit singing. On time 35:00: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR6d0jhhEIk

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      3. Just a little correction here. She didnt say her lowest note is A2. She only commented that her highest is around Eb7. Her lowest remains unknown so far.

        Liked by 1 person

  3. I know you are busy with work, school, everything else. But can you please make a video so more people can be more aware that you guys changed your system? I really liked this change btw.

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    1. What do you mean by that? A video stating that we changed our system and that’s it? People will realize it with time, I mean we’ve announced it already.

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    1. The analyses will say that. Actually the content of the analyses has always been the key to know that kind of thing and these new labels can still tell you that.

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  4. Hey Ahmin,
    You already have fans, just look at my name lol
    I really appreciate that you are trying to make the blog more “objective”, however, in my opinion it has become so professional so that most the “normal people” who have no background would understand these terms…
    I know and you know that many visitors of this blog just want to know the ranking (you said that in the article)…
    So maybe you can do both, the ranking AND this now system?

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    1. Hi dear! Haha Me? Fans? You’re the only one!! Haha Yes I understand. Let’s test this out for a while and if within sometime the ranking system is really needed, we will bring it back! ^ ^

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      1. What do you mean the only one? What does that make me, Minnie???!!!! You trying to start something aren’t you….Something to generate more fans for you…heeheee. 🙂 jk

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  5. sorry if this is a really dumb question/suggestion but I was just wondering why there couldn’t be a specific category for vocalists who have really developed their musicianship? like those who are more daring and who manage to pull off all their changes and things like that? I mean I guess it’s probably hard to measure that so..

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      1. I mean I guess it’s easier to say “they have good musicianship” and “they don’t change things at all” but definitely not as easy to quantify the musicianship, like you can with supported ranges and so on? So it’d be too difficult to differentiate between “high musicianship” and “mid musicianship” and whatever else?
        If you ever did think of a way to do it though, I’m sure it would be an interesting category to have

        Liked by 1 person

  6. Tbh I don’t think it was necessarily a problem, I get why you did it though. I also tend to notice (I’m guilty of this so many times) that people only focus on who their favorite singer is better than or their ranking and ignore the rest of the analysis. So this would also kind of force people to pay attention to what’s being said.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. I don’t know if you’re a troll or not. If your aim is to support the new system, simply say you like it. The old system was anything but bad. It was well thought out, constructed and elaborated. It also took the passagios and the extent to which people can realistically develop their mixes into account. It also quantified good lower ranges and other things. It wasn’t perfect, but nothing is.

      If you disagreed about SM vocalists’ vocal technique, you could also openly discuss why. The admins have always been open to questions with the intent of educating both themselves and others. And the vocal instructor thing, (not to discredit its worth or validity), is not the first time or the last time I’ll see it on this blog. In summary, let’s support the new system and word things in a less offensive manner.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. Not troll at all. I will just say that there’s that general opinion that SM vocalist are “the best” especially with them having a lot of showcases (and prerecorded performances too) and of course, being in top k-pop groups with most attention. I have no doubt in SM vocal training system, but seeing artists with usually shaky, unstable voice ranked better than someone with better technique is just so wrong and ranks were about technique how I remember. Positions which Tiffany, Sunny, Krystal, Taemin got are just.. just.. criminal.. from my point of view, as someone who instruct at St Petersburg Vocal Conservatory. It would took to just point it out, since there were a lot of things wrong with list.
        I’m just here to simply express my own opinion, which I guess mods here response with “read analyses to understand” or “watch our youtube channel”, but whatever.

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      2. Actually, we the mods always appreciate healthy vocal discussions. However most people question the ratings with no substantial reasoning because they skip the analyses and only focus on the ratings themselves. You don’t need to put your credentials on display. (Although a few things seem to not fit.) We don’t need that, instead explain what’s wrong with the content of the analyses versus the rating system and that should suffice. We appreciate detailed technical discussions always! ^ ^ “Shaky unstable voices” referring to live performances with dancing as opposed to talking about the actual content of the analyses or the videos presented as examples within the analyses is what makes us respond with “read the analyses to understand” since that comes off as a vague argument irrelevant to the criteria, the content within the analyses and the vocalists in question. I mean even putting Krystal’s name on display like that as if she was rated high at all. We also had vocalists from SM like Henry, Sungmin and Changmin kind of low, so I hardly see how that’s being overrated personally. Either way with the old system gone, it is irrelevant to question or talk about disagreeing or agreeing with the previous ranking. Now more than ever, the actual content of the analysis is what matters. So you’re in no way obligated to follow up on this comment. But if there are any issues, you can talk about the actual content of the analyses instead of using words like “biased,” “unstable” or “overrated.” For a vocal instructor, I’d expect more technically related remarks.

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    2. I have been trying to write a comment but I can’t seem to come up with one that does not include sarcasm, so I will say instead this: We do not appreciate cussing in this blog and rude comments, so we will delete such comments if you keep writing them. I hope you realize the analyses stay the same.

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      1. *Just curious no offence* So Ahmin you often said that “stability” is not considered as a vocal technique, but doesn’t idols need some sort of skill to achieve the stability in singing while dancing? I mean don’t they have to develop certain muscles in vocal cords or establish breath support to sound “stable”, which somehow link to vocal technique? Like Beyonce, an excellent vocalist as you have mentioned before has established good breath support (read in another vocal technique blog) to sound not tired even after long runs of singing and dancing. I mean I have 0 knowledge on this topic, but I’m just wondering whether vocal technique and “stability” really have 0 correlation.

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      2. Well as explained in my video about stability, it’s more of a matter of proper basic breath support but in order to have stability while dancing, one needs to have good stamina, not necessarily good vocal technique. Beyonce has both stamina for moving on stage and very well developed breath support, whereas many vocalists with no support sound more or less stable because they have stamina despite not having enough vocal technique. So it’s not 0 correlation, it’s just not like dependent on one another.

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    3. I do agree with some SM artists not having good voices but for the most part they are very good vocalists. It seems like you’re the one having bias against SM artists and are you really going to achieve credibility by claiming you’re a vocal instructor with nothing to back it up?

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  7. Hi Ahmin,
    I just wonder if a vocalist can be classified as MA vocalist even if one does not have a very agile voice. Like I can think of Naul that he can be clearly MA as he is but just wonder how other vocalists like Sohyang, Hyorin… etc will be analyzed. Will there be terms like semi agile voice type like the blog used to use in anaylses? Thanks!

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  8. I can understand why more immature “fans” might get overly upset with the ranking system, but I personally really liked it that way. The current system makes it hard to see how one singer’s technique is better or worse than another’s unless you actually know about all of the terms and techniques. I don’t see any harm in comparing people as long as one is objective, which you definitely are! I loved reading your blog before because it really opened my eyes about what makes a vocalist have strong technique, even if I can’t hear it myself. I went from thinking that my favorite singers were the most technically talented to realizing that all of them have flaws and lots of room for improvement, which is a much healthier way to view them (not as gods, but as humans who aren’t perfect). And using the words “strong” and “weak” will always require comparisons to others. Someone can’t have “good” technique if you don’t know how the techniques of others compare. I think it’s really important that fans realize that just because they like a singer, that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re objectively better. And more importantly, fans need to realize that it’s ok to acknowledge that a singer has good technique even if they personally don’t like them. (This also goes for anything else, not just singing or kpop)

    The ranking system always made me want to read and understand more because I would be curious as to why one singer was considered strong or weak. However, now I’m less enthusiastic to read pages of words that don’t always make complete sense to me. It’s not that I don’t want to read it, but that it’s simply more tiring to read so much technical information, if that makes sense? I feel like the ranking system makes this blog more “public-friendly” since it’s easier to understand what you mean, even if the words don’t make sense to someone unfamiliar with vocal technique. If I was a new visitor to the blog and saw these confusing categories instead of a straightforward ranking system, I might not be as willing to continue reading.

    Sorry about the long post, and thank you for all of your hard work!

    Liked by 2 people

    1. my thoughts too….i actually red all analysis and gain a lot of info but i kept reading and reading this new system but i hardly understand it.

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  9. But…I don’t get why you changed it. Well…I get it at some points.
    I mean, that’s not like you are biased or something like that, your analyses were great and contructive. That wasn’t made to hate the guys and girls you were talking about.
    The ranking was like…helping ? I mean, with your new system, all the fans who -like me- don’t know that much about vocal technique will be lost. The ranking was really great, and I had a good time reading all your articles. That’s my opinion, don’t get me wrong -sorry if my english is terrible I’m trying hard to improve- but I feel like that’s a way of saying “Well we do not want to hurt the fans so we will be smooth”…But your criticisms (?) were always intelligent. Vocal technique isn’t subjective after all, right ? You can’t just say “Taeyeon is better than Sohyang” because you like SNSD (that’s just an example).
    What about having both systems ? I don’t know if it is realistic or if it is just too hard to manage, but I think that would be great!
    (I know everything started with that guy, but he is so problematic…like “I’m not into fanwars”. Lol, I have watched a lot of his videos and I can say he has a lot of interest in them. He even called you out in a whole video when you asked him no to.)

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    1. Your English isn’t terrible at all! I understand and I completely with the points you’re making, but we’ve been doing this for about 4 to 5 years now and it was kind of time for a change. We’ve grown in the past 5 years, we’ve matured, we’ve gotten more experienced and our views have changed. It doesn’t mean we don’t have the same approach or understanding of vocal technique anymore, but simply we are trying to show people that there are many different ways to look at vocal technique and there’s not only one way that’s right when it comes to “ranking” people, but there are many ways depending on preference. The content of the analyses stays the same though. The blog is something we’ve worked hard on, that we love and cherish and we agree that our analyses are everything you said they are, but to have this much faith in people on the internet is dangerous. People aren’t always so understanding and the bigger we get, the more dangerous it becomes so sometimes changes need to happen. Actually the problem did not start with one single person. Whoever you’re talking about is not at fault, because this has been something we’ve thought of for a long time. We wouldn’t make decisions suddenly like that. We thought a lot about it. We’ve gotten criticism over the years and at times I personally was attacked by many groups of fans, publicly ridiculed and my words were twisted. This new system is to show an improvement in ourselves as well. But I agree with you about whoever you’re talking about, but one person doesn’t have the power to change us. But many groups of fans show us that perhaps not everybody is ready or will ever be ready to be mature about certain things so we must adapt to keep ourselves sane.

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  10. A month doesnt came back here, and there was a bit of change happened 😂

    Personally, it’s become hard for me, to know which vocalists were good at singing technique and which vocalists haven’t been good at that.
    (Surely, we can still know it, if we read the analysis fully)

    What a shame that many people use that ranking in a bad way. (Even it’s very effective if we use it in good way)

    But I’ll still be your fans dear admin! 😊
    Thank you for your hardwork & patience, answering and teaching all of us freely.

    Hope it’ll have a good result, fighting..

    And may I ask about sooyoung?
    On her birthday fanmeet, she sang flashlight..

    I think she’s improving in support & placement.
    Is it true or not?

    2:12-2:18, is it supported?

    As always, thank you very much, our kpopvocalanalysis 💙

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    1. Hi! Thank you so much for your kind supportive words. Unfortunately I’d say that Sooyoung still sounds quite shallow, so she is still kind of flat throughout parts that ever so slightly high and her vocal cords aren’t connecting enough.

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      1. My very pleasure 😊
        Since you all have been worked hard to spend your time,
        ( responding us, analyzing our bias, even giving youtube vocal lesson) supporting you all is the least we can do.

        Yaah, I think I hope too much on her 😂😂
        But it’s okay, I’ll still like her no matter what.
        Thank you once again 😁

        Liked by 1 person

  11. I.WANT.TO.BEAR.HUG.Y’ALL.ADMINS.ONE.BY.ONE.WITH.ALL.MY.HEART.
    Seriously, i love y’all! your team stand strong even with those harsh and hatred being thrown to you… of course i know you’ve been in struggle since then, but what a brave team you are to show us sincere fans of yours tough side like this. like, wow, not everyone can do that but still you manage to do that.
    i fell in love as soon as i spot your website, i can’t help but to choose your analytics whenever i need professional vocal advice as reference. And i agree with every bold words you typed above (not that i’m disagree with the rest tho, i just think that’s brilliant and thoughtful).
    Keep up that amazing spirit and good intention guys! i stand with you!
    Sincerely,
    an average BTS Army.

    Liked by 1 person

  12. won’t you ever return back the old system with the new system . i mean this new system make understand the induvidual strength for a singer but how he does overall with that strenghths which was in the old system so i hope you really think again about including the old system with this .it would be really useful ,and i hope you really don’t think about those who attack you because they are not intersted in techinque or any thing they are just angry their fav are ranked average or weak or whatever without even reading the analysis so even after removing the system they won’t care and now enjoying the analysis but this really somehow affect people who really care about knowing about vocals .
    i really at first thought that BOA and changmin are the best vocalists in SM but after reading the analysis i understand now why they are not and how they are using their voice and how they should be.(i mean if they undertand the purpose of this page ,they won’t hate that)

    you use those vocalists as examples of how they are using their voice and how to differntiate between support or not by examples .and you make the analysis for vocalists who fans ask you about so they chose this and if they didn’t like it you can make a poll to remove it or any thing else but considering that there are people following you because they want really to learn about techinque and for me you are the most one i trust when talking about techique so you really shouldn’t care about other children outside or give them even your attention.

    you make this for learning about techique so if anyone is not intersted he should leave and act like he didn’t see anything if one wants to learn so he needs to listen and respect people talking .let the haters hate because they won’t stop . and you should consider the age of most kpop fans especially the haters .would you really listen to some children and let them make you to feel uncomfortable .

    i am really to sorry to the that long essay but i really having a difficult time with remembering the old criteria to put the vocalists in and i don’remember where some vocalists were lol
    have a nice day and you are doing really an amazing work thank you for your hard work

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    1. I really appreciate your comment wholeheartedly but I can’t tell you the future. I hope that we won’t need to go back to that old system because our lives will have moved forward and we will have evolved from all of this. I understand how you feel but our content will stay the same and hopefully it will all make sense in the future. I wish the world was as perfect and as mature as you’re describing but that’s unfortunately not the case. It’s funny, I expect the issues to come from young fans too but we’ve had many people in their 20’s target us, people older than me and I was very disappointed to see such immature, childish behavior coming from people acting like bullies. The world is full of bullies, it seems.

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      1. You couldn’t be more right. I deal with bullies every day. And sometimes you have to make small or big choices here and there to diminish the negativity. Changing the ranking system just seems like a great way to start doing that more. The Kpop community is the 1# most loving and gorgeous community amongst all fandom communities ever, for me at least, and it gets bogged down by the negativity and fanwars. To end this post on a good note, the Kpop community is so awesome that they supported James, formerly of Kpop’s Royal Pirates, and funded his entire Kickstarter campaign in three days, if I’m not mistaken. So I hope to see him on this blog soon. Thanks to this community, James is getting a second shot at his Kpop carreer, and at life too. Thanks to this community, I met Minnie and Haruko via the online interactions..

        Liked by 1 person

  13. I respect your choice to remove rankings but the new labels are completely useless for me. They’re confusing at best for someone with little knowledge. If anything it makes me want to not bother reading at all. Just categorize them under companies and leave it at that… or something like male/female solo/group.

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    1. I am sorry to hear that Mark, but we realize a lot of issues with our previous system were that people never did bother reading at all anyway and would jump to the ratings and either use it in the wrong way or get mad about it. The point of the analyses is the content within them, not the ratings but people were worrying too much about them. Giving the readers the answers without them reading was the issue, but the content still will tell you the same thing as the ratings did. I don’t know whether or not you would read before and if it doesn’t wanna make you read at all now, well I’m sorry about that too. But in order to learn, one must read regardless and we always allow and encourage questions. So it’s up to you.

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  14. I really like this change. Honestly the good work of this blog was simply fuel for petty fanwars and that really shouldn’t be the point. I don’t think the effort and hard work of either yourselves or the idols you’ve analysed should be used in such a manner you belittle them. Even if it is not your goal, your work was being used to do so. I can’t imagine how frustrating that was to watch.

    Plus like this, if they really want to use it as fodder, then they actually have to read more than a category and understand that it’s far deeper than ‘my bias is better than yours’.

    In this way you’ve taken your power back from them.. They can no longer use your passion and effort to hurt others.. I hope it works out for you well like this..

    Liked by 1 person

  15. The fact that the ranking system is removed because of kpop’s toxic side genuinely makes me really sad. I already hated the fact that people so strongly ascribed singers to their ranking without any consideration for why they even have that label, but I hate it even more when people use these labels, which were created with positive intentions to help people understand the singers more easily, to fuel kpop’s toxicity. The rankings really helped me place vocal pedagogy into better perspective for me, but it just really sucks that the world only focuses on “better” and “worse” and not what the vocalist’s characteristics are or why they have the ranking they do.

    On the flip side, I actually really like the fact that you guys removed the ranking system, and I wholeheartedly support the decision! I’ve always cared more about the analysis anyway. I’m really going to miss it, and admittedly at first I was a bit weirded out by the new system. But the more I navigate through it, the more I like it because it really helps CHARACTERIZE vocalists. It’s funny because it does that so well that… I feel like it’s almost like you guys are yelling “THIS is what we want you guys to focus on” at your haters with a megaphone. It’s probably not even what you guys intended, but the point is that the new system does a really good job at allowing us to really focus on the analyses. The new labels are a bit vague and aren’t hierarchical at all, so I think it actually encourages people to read the analyses to see why they’re labeled as, say, “well-rounded” or “stylistic”. Because of this, I really think people will start recognizing just how much work it takes for you guys to write these analyses.

    I don’t thank you guys enough for them, but as someone who really loves singing, the analyses and this blog in general really opened my eyes to how I view singers and artists as well as how I approach my own singing (even if I refuse to improve… LOL jk jk. College makes things hard). The funny thing is, even though I certainly realize that certain vocalists aren’t as good as I initially thought they were, I never stopped liking them. Some were objectively not as good as I thought they were, but that doesn’t have to affect my subjective response to their singing. All it really did is make me appreciate my faves more because it really makes me see that they’ve put in time to develop their instrument… or sometimes reading the analyses makes me realize “ohhh so that’s why they sound this way”. Just because Tiffany does a lot of things with her voice that prevent her from improving doesn’t mean I can’t love her tone, and in fact I even love her singing more than a lot of vocalists better than her––and that’s okay. Even though I genuinely love Junsu’s singing and how it emotionally affects me, I recognize his vocal development isn’t perfect and he has a lot of room for development (especially in his lower register).

    I’m saying all of that to get to this: I know I’m not the only one who has experienced this. You guys have educated a LOT of people on vocal pedagogy. There are people that you guys have educated that are mature enough to recognize that you guys provide OBJECTIVE information that are widen people’s perspectives of singing––I am positive that there are more people than you guys know. I’m pretty sure the immature ones who start fan wars are simply the most vocal about their opinions, and they can be very… passionate and blind-sighted. I’ve kinda been silent and observing everything that has been going on for a really long time but I feel like it’s probably cathartic for me to kinda just let it all out in one comment LOL, so yeah, that was it. Thank you guys for everything you guys have done––from the amount of time you guys take out of your schedules to write the analyses to even the pictures you guys choose for the vocalists to make the blog look aesthetic a’f (you guys literally choose the best photos). I really hope you guys keep up the good work ^^

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    1. “But the more I navigate through it, the more I like it because it really helps CHARACTERIZE vocalists. It’s funny because it does that so well that… I feel like it’s almost like you guys are yelling “THIS is what we want you guys to focus on” at your haters with a megaphone.”
      ….It’s actually exactly that. LOL Honestly your third paragraph is beautiful and it’s what I wish everyone could be mature enough and grow up to understand someday. Ironically, some people are well into their 20’s and 30’s and yet are unable to have such a clear and mature response to constructive criticism and I feel for them. Life will be tough. Thank you for your comment, not only are you a passionate learner, you’re a kind hearted person and I really truthfully appreciate your support and loving words. I really believe in what you’re saying and it helps us go forward. Thank you from the bottom of our hearts.

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  16. I can understand why you guys decided to remove the ranking chart, but the actual ratings have always been helpful. I would click on the ratings whether it was “average” or “proficient” vocalists and I was able to hear the similarities in the approach of the vocalists’ technique within their respective categories. And by actually reading the analyses I was able to recognize what differentiates them in terms of their overall development and technique. I believe that was the initial point of the rating categories/system to begin with. It’s a shame that some fans used this as a way to be petty and incite fan-wars because it obviously wasn’t your intention. If they were able to put aside their own bias and immaturity they would be able to realize this. As for the new criteria, I personally find it to be repetitive… Because if people cared to actually read the whole analyses they would realize that this new criteria is already discussed in depth WITHIN the analyses. By reading the analyses, a fan should be able to know (or read) if the vocalist’s voice is most developed within their mid-range or not, or if they can support their head voice higher in their range or if their voice is agile… I mean you literally have a section of the analysis labelled “Agility” where you explain how flexible their voices are and how smooth they can transition between their registers. The “Registers” section gives a brief explanation of the development of their lower, mid & upper register and of course the “overall analysis” goes into depth about their technique and support with examples. And as for “Commercial vocalists”, I kind of see it as a way to sugarcoat a weaker vocalist without actually saying they’re “weak” technique wise… I get it though because it must’ve been frustrating dealing with such backlash for the last couple of years, but regardless you can’t please everyone and this could unfortunately still provoke some fans to be upset if they read the analyses and either 1) Still don’t understand it or 2) Be upset if they realize their favorite vocalist may not be as good as they expected. Though that should never stop a fan from enjoying the artist to begin with. Regardless I do enjoy this blog and I appreciate your hard work. I still kinda hope you can bring the old ratings back because I really do find them useful lol, but we’ll see and it’s up to you. Good luck!

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    1. It really is just a logical repetition of what the content of the analyses is, but since people don’t usually bother reading I believe it forces people to read to make sense out of things. I doubt this will upset people as there are no real “bad ratings” so unless they understand what it says, there’s no way to get mad. Thank you btw, for the comment and for the understanding reaction.

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    1. Read through it again, and I’m sure you’ll get it. It’s not that difficult to get used to because the labels focus on the specialties of vocalists and first and foremost reflect the content that is written in the analysis itself. One you re-read your fave’s analysis and connect it with the label, it will make sense.

      Liked by 1 person

  17. Hi Ahmin,
    The (not so much anymore) new classification system is actually pretty interesting. I actually quite like it, although I have to admit the ranking chart was a nice visual reference to have and a good way to understand how efficiently they are using their voices, this system tags vocalists under parts of their voice where they’ve really put intention and effort to develop. I had a small question about it though, can a vocalist be both a Mid-range belter AND a High-range belter? I looked around and couldn’t find a vocalist that was under both of those, so I guess not?

    And also, I know its probably not very productive to ask questions about the previous system but this is something I was wondering about since before the change. Given that you’re a vocalist yourself, did you ever think like if you were on that ranking system where you would have been? Where you would have place yourself according to its benchmarks? Just a curiosity question, feel free to not answer it lol. Thanks in advance and keep up the good work.

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    1. I’m not Ahmin, but whatever lol
      The idea is that someone that is “Mid-range belter” is someone who has not developed their technique in the higher range and therefore cannot be a “high-range belter.” For example, TaeYeon is a “Mid-Range belter” because her upper range is not very developed compared to HaeRi who is a high range belter and has resonance and support there. The people who we have labelled as “High-Range belters” are also “Mid-range belters” because you have to be good in the mid-range before you can be good in the high range. Y’know what I am saying? However, those labelled as “Mid range belters” cannot be considered “High range belters” because they lack the technique to do well up there.

      Because I am not Ahmin I cannot answer this question lol.

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  18. HELLO 🙂 … so i was going to write something right after i saw this change (to rant a little tbh), but i decided not to, thinking that maybe i’ll get used to it … and i gotta say i think i am, however i still want to share some thoughts about it …. i was thinking that, like some people have said, these labels are a bit confusing and that maybe you guys need to show a little chart (like a box summarizing all the labels or characteristics, like a little box or something to make it more visual …. and i decided to create some (ugly af, extremely simple) just to try to think if it helps or how it would ….. but after i did ones to my fav vocalists i was left quite confused…..

    pic.twitter.com/FjjyY3Kjme

    i did the former five snsd vocalists and thought “oh this looks quite alright, this makes sense” … but after seeing shinee’s trio and exo’s trio i thought “maybe nah” and got me thinking about how accurate are these labels … i mean on the original ranking it was quite clear that exo’s vocal line was a bit better than shinee’s one (not to sound harsh or insensitive, i’m both a shawol and exo-l) but if someone who has not read the analysis or that knows almost nothing about vocals see it i think they would think otherwise.

    Then i was a bit confused about the label “mid range vocalist” because i thought that it seems quite odd that someone like taemin is only marked as a mid range belter but some others like tiffany and sunny who are both mid range vocalist can also be labeled as something else with chest and head voice. Because if i’m not mistaken ( THERE IS A VERY HIGH POSSIBILITY THAT I AM, since i know close to nothing about vocals ) the range described for that category contains both mixed and chest voice, so i’m confused about that

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    1. I apologize in advance for my stupidity. I know the last paragraph doesn’t make too much sense but i just can’t put it into words.

      Like

    2. Well this isn’t a system about who’s better so the visual representation wouldn’t give you the same exact result either. Mid range vocalists usually refers to their mixed voices and middle voices more so than the rest of their range but I can see your confusion.

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  19. I have just saw this …
    I feel so sad .. really .. even tho most of my favs werent even here(apart from Kyuhyun) but it was really nice..
    The new system looks so complicated .. i’m not that into Music terms and it will be hard for me to even understand where to put or label them ..I was almost used to the terms you use and i started to get most of the words you use .. But uh now i don’t seem to understand anything…
    I feel like crying 😦
    I was waiting for the new list ..
    Who cares about dumb ppl calling for fan wars?
    They make fanwars out of everything!
    And they r so dumb to even understand anything or listen to anybody ..

    am really heartbroken.. But i wish you all the best.. do whatever you guys feel like is the right thing to do …

    Liked by 1 person

  20. I posted once in the “About our criteria” page but saw you didn’t reply to other comments so I decided to post in here lol

    Ahmin, can I ask whether whistle register is present in all of us? I read in Wikipedia (yes I know it’s not credible) that all women possess whistle register while only a small percentage of men have whistle register. Is it true?

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    1. I think I can help. Everybody can use a whistle register, and by default, everybody can have one. It just depends if a person can learn to access it. The Woozi kid from seventeen can legitimately use a whistle register. I don’t know about the percentage thing even if I saw it before. There exists the possibility and likelihood that females have an easier time accessing the whistle register than men.

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      1. It’s just funny to me that you called him “That Woozi kid” when he’s one of the older members from Seventeen.

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  21. OMG It’s almost 6 months the last time i visit your blog! and smh kinda sad to know about what happened ! I want to hug all of you for all the kindness and hardwork.

    Seriously, kpop or even the whole world is just not ready for this vocal technique things. Your blog are too good and way intellectually challenging for close minded people. People just keep getting mad that their idols labelled not as good as they expected to be, when actually in the end it doesn’t matter because it doesn’t mean you should like less of anyone because they have some imperfections in vocal technique. If you like to hear whispery breathy raspy like singing, then go on, but you have to admit that it might not be the best, healthiest, and optimum way to sing.

    Liked by 1 person

  22. Ranking is reason for fanwar You`re not resposible for poeple`s immaturity. The ranking helped many to know their vocalist was and now we have nothing!

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Ranking is a reason for fanwar? You’re not responsible for people’s immaturity. The ranking helped many to know where their vocalist was and now we have nothing!

      Liked by 1 person

  23. Please go back to your old system. I came here for years for honest rankings and evaluations, and I feel like it’s been ruined by petty and immature fans. :/// it’s understandable that it all got too much, but it is very sad to see it get destroyed by overly aggressive fans.

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  24. So after a few months (have it been that long?) of testing did you guys decide to stick to the new ranking system? I guess your analyses are still nice and I would support no matter what, but I guess the old ranking system is not coming back D:

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      1. Yeah D: Still low-key want the analyses back, but after few weeks of waiting I guess an analyse for now will suffice XD

        Btw I’m joking I know you’re very busy moving your house in Germany best luck!!

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      2. Oh actually I was only in Germany temporarily! The real place I was moving to was Korea which is where I am right now.

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      3. Oh really :O Mind telling me which city are you living in? And are you still teaching as a vocal coach? Or will make an update about your life in a new video XD

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      4. I hope you’re doing great in the road to achieving your dreams, Minnie. Seeing you succeed motivates me to constantly get it together.

        P.S. Don’t worry too much about the pace of new analyses, the awesome bright side is that the future vocalists you’ll analyze will hopefully have improved a bit more by then and will make analyzing them much easier.

        Liked by 1 person

      5. I know that the change in ranking system was dictated by one calling itself vocal coach on youtube. You know about who I’m talking about. Do not be fooled by such people who criticize the ranking system because he has his own ranking system and he is talking who is bad and who is better. He is just looking for something to fight about but he has own ranking system in his videos and he decide who is better based on something, right? I know that you don’t want to build tension between people and singers but this is not important at all.
        Then why schools do not remove any ratings because someone could be offended? There always would be someone angry whatever you do. So, stop paying attention. In every human activity there is someone who do it better and someone who do it worse. Yes this is the truth. Regardless is it painting, playing the guitar, piano, boxing, swimming and so on… In one singing style and similar technique there always will be someone who do it better.
        The ranking system must show how good this person do it. And there must be someone to evaluate them by some criteria. Every human activity can be evaluated. If someone is not in school anymore that doesn’t mean that nobody can evaluate his skills anymore. Yes, someone may get angry and so what?! So, let’s remove all ranking systems everywhere.This is your own ranking system and you have all rights to do it by your criteria. Sorry, but ranking is always needed for any human activity and everyone do it. And someone must tell who do it better. It’s better to have ranking by someone who knows at least what he is talking about.

        Liked by 1 person

      6. It was not dictate by him, he’s not important enough for that. It was a long time coming and I had been thinking about it for a long time, I just got one last push for it then and it’s done. I have deeper reasons for it. It’s something that had to be done for my future but some people like to flatter themselves thinking they’re important enough to sway me or us. Thank YOU though for such a lovely and encouraging message. But I’m sorry my decision will remain for now.

        Like

  25. While I understand the perspective of not wanting to be fuel for the fire, you do realize the change to the system does absolutely nothing positive for fan wars?

    (1) It’s going to happen. As long as more than a single idol exists, there are going to be inevitable comparisons between this and that, and that “fire” is not going to be put out by any means.

    (2) The only thing this change takes away from fan wars is objectivity (according to your reasonably subjective standards). I’ve experienced it first-hand, and I’m sure you too, but the level of comprehensive analysis you provide is about what it takes to end the precise playground brawls you’re against. If the team sticks by this agenda, it leaves so much more up to interpretation and ignorance. With before, the most people could do would be to plead from ignorance and/or deny “studied authority.” I’ve read some comments, and I simply think you guys shouldn’t cave in to their immature mannerisms.

    (3) I think this new aspect of analyses would have been an interesting addition, but understandably I won’t look at them the same.

    Still, I’ll continue to read the blog.

    Liked by 2 people

  26. I like this new system but I’m sad it came about from y’all getting hate :/
    If it’s not to late to suggest things, could you maybe do different categories for singers based of how fast their voices are? Meaning break down the MA category? Also this isn’t a big thing but I feel like MA should be switched to A for agility. I keep looking at MA and thinking the M is for midrange.

    Liked by 1 person

  27. It’s a shame you had to remove the ranking because of hate, it felt very fair and objective.
    I like the new categories a lot, they make it very easy to understand what kind of vocalist each singer is. But I miss the ranking to know if X is better than Y overall since they can have a different style and is hard to compare.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. The point is that if their styles are different, there is no fair comparison. Who cares if X is better than Y anyway? It was mostly used to spur fanwars with claims of objectivity, which is bogus anyway because focusing solely on breathing technique misses the importance of artistry, tone/timbre and emotion.

      Liked by 1 person

      1. You obviously are not in the right place then. This blog (or what it used to be) ignored entirely the emotional aspect and evaluated singers for nothing but their technical skill. And please don’t say such ignorant things like “solely breathing techniques” as if that were all that were relevant with singing.

        Liked by 1 person

  28. I like the change very much. Singers don’t need great technique to be effective (Jungkook, for example), although some suffer for it by damaging their voices (Park Bom).

    Anyone who puts in the effort to read an entire analysis, or realizes the meaning of certain designations (and that more is better) can figure out who you consider the cream of the crop.

    Liked by 1 person

  29. For someone who doesn’t know much about technique, it looks really intimidating, but I like how you organize artists on what they do best. It takes into account personalized each voice is, but I miss being able to tell immediately who trained their voice the right way and who didn’t. Both systems are really useful. Art is so subjective that I can see why you eliminated the old one. Terms like “weak” were never well-received by jump-to-conclusion fans.

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  30. Hey, I see you’re still receiving a lot of negative comments about the new ranking system and I just wanted to say a couple things about it. I’ll try to be short ^^
    I’m gonna be honest: at first I wasn’t so keen on the new system either. The reason why was because I, like many readers, would always skip to the end, look at the label, and use that to form my opinions about the vocalist. I’d see “average” or “above average” and think oh, that’s why she’s better than so-and-so. And there’s nothing really WRONG with that system. But looking back on it, I actually think that system discouraged people from reading and understanding the actual content of the analysis. And I think that’s why it encouraged fan wars – because people were just reading a label and claiming their idol was better without providing any of the actual evidence within the analysis to back up that claim. So obviously then the people on the side of the other idol would get pissed off, and that would spiral. Also, more people were questioning the analyses in quite a hostile way, because they were just skipping to the bottom and seeing their favourite as “weak” or “weak to average” without reading the actual reasons WHY they were classified that way. And I know I’m no expert, but in my opinion having to stop fan wars and answer hostile fans is not the purpose of this blog and runs counter to the whole aim of educating people about vocal technique.
    Also, for me as a musician, I actually think ranking people based on their technique serves no purpose other than recognising the people who have worked on their technique. Let’s say I’ve just started learning piano. And I’m working really hard on my piano playing, but then somebody decides to compare me to Lang Lang. That’s not going to necessarily help me improve, although it might give some people motivation. It’s just going to make me feel a bit put down and perhaps give up a little or not work as hard on my technique, because I’ve basically been given a massive put down. And if I happened to have a very good technique and was compared to someone who’s just starting out, that might also be counterproductive as it could lead to me becoming stagnant and not feeling as if I NEED to improve any more. In my opinion, ranking people based on their technique for musical instruments (and vocal technique !!) serves no purpose for that reason. For me, if I’m working on something I’m gonna be helped a lot more by just focussing on what MY strengths are and what I could work on, rather than on what someone else does.
    But above all, even if I hadn’t liked the new system, I would never have dreamed of posting a salty comment about it. Overall, this isn’t my blog. It doesn’t belong to me or any fans of it, it belongs to you. If you want to do something different with it, it’s not up to us. It’s up to you. We have absolutely no right to tell you what to do and I’m so sorry on behalf of everyone sending hate, its totally uncalled for and ridiculous. I really hope you guys don’t get too put down for it. You’ve educated so many people and you’re doing such a good job. Stay healthy and happy ^^

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Oh honey thank you for a thought out sweet comment although it’s fine. This hate ain’t nothing compared to how things used to be. Of course we still a few uneducated ignorant people who will forever hate us. I can think of a few off of the top of my head that I’ve encountered over the years and I can say they’re fine, they have to have something to obsess with and fill in the void in their lives. I wish their happiness as I’m quite happy with my life. ^ ^ thank you too for being quite sweet!

      Like

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